Susan Seidelman On The Magic of Madonna and Shooting Sex And The City
Director Susan Seidelman has quite an eye for portraying girlish, rebellious exuberance. Fashioning pictures in the realms of magical-urbanism, her signature pink title cards and fairy-tale-like depictions of ‘80s New York City arguably make her the most sophisticatedly female filmmaker in movie history. Her career, encompassing key moments in the pop arts from introducing Madonna to the screen to directing the pilot for Sex and The City, surely belongs in the film books as one of the most astonishing ones by a woman auteur. Recently I chatted with Miss Seidelman over Zoom on everything from Vera Chytilová to how she creates dazzling costume design.
Madonna’s hardcore fans acknowledge that her cinematic career undoubtedly peaked with your film. Could you share any recollections from working with her?
She was a neighborhood girl and used to live down the street from me. I was lucky that I got to work with her at a magical moment in her life since it was only during the making of “Desperately Seeking Susan” that she became an icon. Once you work with somebody who’s already an established star, they’re a lot more demanding and it’s much more overwhelming when an entourage has to surround the production. I feel lucky that I got to know Madonna when she was still aspiring because there’s an endearing quality to people like that, not just to those who’ve already made it.
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Is it true she appeared with some of her own clothing in the film?
You can see, for example, in the scene when Madonna’s sitting on a couch in front of “The Magic Club”. She’s wearing an orange cut-off t-shirt that says “MC”. Lifted right from her closet, obviously.
The fashion in your movies is beyond iconic, ranging from the pyramid jacket to a pair of Keith Haring heels as seen in “Making Mr. Right” (1987). What’s your favorite garment ever featured in one of your films?
Obviously the most iconic garment is the pyramid jacket from “Desperately Seeking Susan”, but my personal favorite is the black and white skirt that Wren wears in the opening scene of “Smithereens”. Together with her silver shoes, it looks like something out of The Wizard of Oz. I’m fascinated by the idea of taking gritty reality and tweaking it through fashion to make it magical. For instance, the great thing about the pyramid in Madonna’s jacket is that it represents a magical symbol but also materialism: it suggests adventure, as seen in the Egyptian pyramids, but it’s in the dollar bill too, which is…. money! That kind of makes two things you wouldn’t put together and that’s interesting to me. And the other thing I love about costumes is that they represent not just who a character is, but how they wish to be seen in the world. Clothes tell you a lot without having to employ too much dialogue. You just put somebody in a certain outfit and instantly form an impression of who they are and how they want to be perceived.
Could you cite some of the influences behind your eye-popping, sophisticated visuals?
One is my background in fashion design and the other was having moved from the suburbs. I was raised in Philadelphia, which was very boring and homogenous so I was impatient to relocate to New York City. When I moved there in the mid ‘70s to Downton to the lower East Side, I was so inspired because it was so fresh and diverse. The energy going on there was pretty unique though New York isn’t like that anymore.
Your films have made me want to visit NYC although I’ve always felt more like a L.A. girl. I’m aware, however, that if I was to go it wouldn’t be nearly as dreamy as in your films…
Yeah, it’s changed a lot. That’s funny because even though I’m in the movie business, I can only stand L.A. for maybe two weeks at a time. Back then L.A. always felt more like there were some expensive neighborhoods and some ghettos but not much mixing and mingling between people as opposed to NYC.
“New audiences have been capable of filtering the film through a female lens and grasp the original intention that older men couldn’t at the time.”
A lot of the titles, interiors and props in your movies are pink, like Meryl Streep’s typing machine in “She-Devil” (1989). Is this an intentional choice to feminize the visuals of your films, or do you simply love the color à la Jayne Mansfield?
Every prop, bit of clothing and title design in my movies is intentional. I used pink because it’s a color associated with women, and different from the kind of design I was used to seeing in movies directed by men. There are two main ways I’ve used the color. One can be seen in the opening sequence of “Desperately Seeking Susan” in the beauty salon with pinks, peaches and pastels and the robes that the women are wearing. They amplify the soft, feminine, protective girly world that the Rosanna Arquette character lives in. But I’ve also employed pink in a much more aggressive way like in “She-Devil”. The pink is very bright, almost brutal, like in the mansion that Meryl Streep lives in. It’s so in-your-face it makes a statement.
I love “She-Devil”. I remember watching it years ago and being so confused that the majority seemed to dislike it
I’m aware it sparked a lot of criticism, especially when it came out. A lot of it came from the male character who was kind of a token male, one-dimensional and all that. My response was, well, haven’t women been portrayed that way for the last 50 years? And if you took a closer look at who those critics were, for the most part they were men. To me, “She-Devil” works as a social commentary on culture’s obsession with beauty, fame and money. I’ve noticed, though, that in the past decade or two the younger generation of women have looked at the film in the way it was intended to be seen, as social satire on power and powerlessness and how those who have money, fame and beauty tend to excel the most in a society that glorifies those traits. New audiences have been capable of filtering the film through a female lens and grasp the original intention that older men couldn’t at the time.
I must ask you about casting one of my favorite filmmakers, classic Hollywood star and comedian Jerry Lewis who played a mobster in your movie “Cookie” (1989).
I had seen him in the Martin Scorsese film “King of Comedy” and I liked how he mixed his goofiness with his ominous side. He was a very powerful man in Hollywood, a very controlling person from what I’ve read. And I too am a fan of Jerry Lewis movies from the ‘50s and ‘60s like “The Patsy” and “The Bellboy”. Plus, I like it that he invented a lot of cinematic techniques and tools.
As someone who went from majorly directing for movie theaters in the ‘80s to mostly working on TV films, would you say there’s less artistic merit to shooting for TV –or perhaps nowadays’ equivalent, streaming services– than for the silver screen?
The situation has radically changed in the past few years, certainly since the pandemic. When I started directing in the ‘80s and ‘90s, working for television was considered like a second-class citizen to making movies. No one wanted to direct for TV, just for the big screen. As for me, I have done some episodic shows but they were all work. I’d do the job and enjoy the casting and the directing but I was never artistically moved by it. The only exception was “Sex and The City” and that’s because I was in charge of the pilot. I was there from the start to help shape the look and the feel of the show which is different from being brought to direct an episode of an existing series where you have to stick to the template and rules already laid down. But, since the pandemic, the situation has definitely changed because so many of the new shows are much more interesting than a lot of what’s in the theaters. The studios have changed so much; now all they’re making are Marvel comic book movies, sequels and prequels and Iron Man 3, 4, 5. Most of the creative stuff is coming out of television these days so the stigma of working for TV is no longer there.
I’m curious to know if Leora Barish who wrote “Desperately Seeking Susan” (1985), among other remarkable screenplays (see: Basic Instinct 2) ever told you what she thought of your adaptation.
You know, we never discussed. She never told me but I have to think she must have been quite pleased because it helped all of us. The screenplay was definitely her original, though we did have other people come in and re-write some of the drafts. That’s always a little tricky but ultimately she got all of the credit because it was her script.
Finally, could you name five films that represent your essence as closely as possible – that perfectly capture the soul of Susan Seidelman?
Every movie I’ll mention will feature a strong female character that breaks the rules in some way. One of my favorites and a huge inspiration for “Smithereens” is Federico Fellini’s “Nights of Cabiria” from 1957. I love the feistiness of actor Giulietta Masina but also the grittiness, the dirtiness, the roughness of the world depicted. I guess it was shot in Italy several years after WWII while the city was kind of crumbling and buildings looked dilapidated. There was a beautiful texture to Italy at that time that I connected to NYC in the ‘70s when the city was facing a bankruptcy crisis and falling apart. Then I’d add two starring Marilyn Monroe: “Some Like It Hot” by Billy Wilder and “Gentlemen Prefer Blondes” that has a vibrant Technicolor I love. I’d also say “Celine and Julie Go Boating” because I love movies that revolve around women who decide to shake up their lives by going on adventures. I like the connections between film and life and how the two protagonists impact one another. And my final pick is sort of an avant-garde movie, I don’t know if you’ve seen it – it’s called Daisies?
Yes! As a matter of fact, it’s gained a lot of popularity in the last few years thanks to the internet. It’s quite dazzling.
Again, I’m inspired by the rebellious quality of the film and its freedom. I believe it was shot in Czechoslovakia in the mid ‘60s so you can feel the restrictions of the government at that time.The two rebellious girls turning everything into an adventure or a party was kind of groundbreaking back then, and I’m glad to hear viewers today are enjoying the movie as well.
Words: Nicole Stunwyck
