Shirley Manson talks Female Rage, Alanis Morissette and Sausage Rolls
Shirley Manson is a cult icon for a reason - her music, obviously brilliant, her style, instantly recognisable, but her outspoken personality is what really seals the deal. Repeatedly using her platform to discuss hard hitting topics other famous people may purposefully avoid, as well as doing so from a warm, genuine point of care. Being such a brilliant personality alongside an incredible talent makes Manson a little intimidating to approach, but immediately upon sparking a conversation, all worries are totally gone.
Over a twenty minute call we set the world to rights, covering everything from the modern music scene to climate change to Greggs sausage rolls.
Morning! Let’s get straight to it, I saw your Instagram post the other day about how hard it is to be a new band - I wondered if you feel obliged to be sticking up for younger people in the industry?
I do, actually, I was an unknown artist for a decade before I ever got even vaguely successful. Even though I've had a really long burning career, I started really super indie. I was working for 10 years before anyone gave a shit.
I understand I have a certain kind of platform that's available to me, that is not available to younger artists. And while I wouldn't go so far as to say I feel a responsibility, I definitely have an awareness of their plight and I have a real sympathy for it. I know how difficult it is having done it myself so I just want to use the space that I have to try and make it a little easier for someone else. I think that's just the decent thing to do.
___STEADY_PAYWALL___
Yeah, definitely. I think once you've been through like the wringer yourself, you're like, how can I make this easier for other people?
Well, I think certainly people like you and me do, but I don't know if everybody does. We're certainly living at a time in our culture right now that everybody's very me orientated. And it seems that everybody's forgotten that we live in a community. I see myself as part of the musical community and it’s an important family to me. And I want to honour that.
Do you think it's harder to be a musician now than in the 90s?
I don't think it's harder, it's definitely different. There are certain things that are easier than they were when I was trying to build a career. You can make a splash, a big splash, pretty quick now and you couldn't do that when I was young. But there are all manners of things that are much more difficult now, I think for artists, but each generation has its own challenges. And unfortunately right now, young musicians are really up against it.
But young people are really up against it in general, like it's a tough time post COVID. All the adults are sucking their thumbs and expecting young people to fix all these unseen problems like climate change, racism and sexism and big, big topics. These issues are left at the feet of the young people, because all the older generation are too busy trying to build their retirement funds.
We’re in a patronising era too I think. Older generations aren’t seeing the point of people actively trying to change things - like those activists with the tin of soup the other day. They don’t understand that we'd rather destroy a piece of art than not be alive for as long as we’re meant to be, or for other generations to be alive for as long as they're meant to be.
It's interesting that the tin of soup incident that you refer to, it has really garnered a lot of polarised opinions. Part of it is that my generation and older, we weren't under threat of climate change. As we were growing up, it wasn't something we were even remotely aware of. Right. So we're ignorant. And we're also older, and I think the older generation are sort of thinking, “Well, it's not my burden! I'm outta here in 20 years - what do I care?” It’s very selfish, very short sighted.
Younger people, on the other hand, understand that art cannot exist if we have a fucked planet. So the actions of those young people the other day, which were very courageous and very necessary, have been sneered at but also really appreciated. It depends on what side of the pool you're standing on, you know.
It's a complicated situation because people feel very strongly about Vincent van Gogh and Sunflowers and I'm not a big proponent of destroying art either, but I think the gesture was important is getting people speaking - it was like that amazing scientist who, chained himself to the outside his offices weeping, because he couldn't believe that nobody is listening to their advice about climate change.
“If you can hold yourself up in this industry, you have my undying respect, whether you're playing fucking polka, or, you know, heavy metal or anything in between. You have my undying respect.”
It's kind of like that suffragette who thew herself in front of a horse. It just gets to the boiling point where you're like, Well, what can I do? What will get attention? What's going to make things change?
Yeah, like monks setting themselves on fire, it's the same thing. It's the act of desperate people, sending an alarm for humanity and they get laughed at and dismissed. But again, they've got everyone talking and that is important. It's really, really vitally important that we all attend to the climate crisis. But people are very lax andhe people that still hold the power don't give a shit. So it's come down to those of us who do, to try and facilitate change urgently.
You've mentioned that it's especially hard to be a young person right now, but when I was reading your Guardian interview you did the other day, you were addressing how ageism adds another layer to the misogyny and ignorance you receive as a woman. Did you see that kind of dismissal as inevitable or is it a hard adjustment?
I saw it coming. You know, even when I was young and beautiful, I saw it coming around the corner. I've watched how society treats women and how they love to keep us in our place. When we're young and beautiful they control our bodies and then sadly, once we're past the age of child rearing, then we're just forgotten about and dumped in a garbage bin basically. I mean, look at how they've treated Madonna. It's outrageous.
She's literally Madonna and she can't escape it.
If they're coming after Madonna, they're coming after all of us. Ageism is specifically designed to keeping women in their place. Men do not suffer from the same kind of bigotry as women do. Older men are not treated with sneer, they are treated with reverence - as they should be, you know, if you're a decent person who's aged - but women are just dismissed entirely.
I think it's slowly changing, because I do see a generation of women that are refusing to cooperate with ideas that women shouldn't be working past the age of 45 and women shouldn't be wearing short skirts past the age of 45. The generation that came before me, people like Chrissy Hynde, Debbie Hardy, Stevie Nicks, Patti Smith, they're all still working, they're all still vigorous, intellectually, and otherwise, you know. They're exciting and they're fighting a fight for all of us.
There's a really good interview with Madonna in the late 80s, early 90s, and they talking to her about how sexual she is, and they're going, ‘What you're gonna do when you're too old to be sexual?’ And she was like, ‘I will never be too old to be sexual, this is who I am.’
Good for her. And, certainly, we're seeing her continue that sort of style of hers that well into our 60s, you know. What bothers me is just how little respect she's accorded, how people still take a good pot shot at her and feel that they have the right to comment on her body and face.
People feel angry towards her for wanting to still be in the public eye, but that's been her whole life.
Society feels angry towards women past the age of 45, as I said, and they want us to just disappear. There is this anger, a societal anger towards women who refuse to do so. There's a lot of anger towards women in society. Why? Why do we think they're trying to control women's bodies and forcing them into pregnancies they don't want? That's anger.
It's perplexing to me, I don't really understand it. I don't see why men get to do whatever the fuck they want and women's behaviour is constantly policed and patrolled. It's obscene, and I really, really hope that younger generations continue to fight this and buck the trend and turn this all around because it is really dangerous. It's a dangerous societal power over women that should not exist and cannot stand.
As I’m reaching 30, it's getting to the point now where I'm just starting to question how we even do that anymore? I feel like when I was younger, I was so much more emboldened, and then it's kind of getting to that point where the question just remains - how is anything going to change?
You have to remain defiant and put your energies and your efforts and your talents and your vision into creating work that inspires other people to feel defiant.
It's imperative that women who feel like we do hold on to our hope and our fury and our outrage. These are qualities that are frowned upon by society that, you know, a woman shouldn't be angry, she should smile more, she should be more pleasing. These are all tropes to keep us in check and to stop us from spreading outrage about how we're treated.
But I never feel hopeless, I have to say, I have to confess, I never feel hopeless. I feel frustrated a lot of the time but I never feel hopeless. Because I know that my outrage is powerful and I can spread that to my niece, I can spread it to my goddaughter, I can spread it to my friends. And if we keep spreading that, that's a power and it becomes harder and harder for the powers that be to manipulate that.
I've just got two more questions. They are a bit more lighthearted! How did you find touring with Alana Morissette?
It was amazing because we'd come straight out of COVID. We hadn't worked for almost two years. God bless her, she really saved our bacon. Referring back to that article I wrote about the live music scene, we didn't want to take the financial risk of going out when COVID was still raging. It was going to be just a financial risk that would have destroyed our band, had we taken it and people got sick. So we decided to stay home, but then Alanis was like, I'm going out, I’d love to take you guys if you're interested.
So we leapt at that chance and she was playing pretty big venues that were all outdoors, so it was like a dreamscape for us and kept us all safe, nobody got sick. It felt like a privilege to open for an artist who has meant so much to her generation and has really conducted herself with a lot of dignity. She's been through the wringer with regards to music industry, you know - she was a child star, she got ripped off by our accountants, she hasn't been treated very well.
And she's survived decades now at this point, through ups and downs in a very cruel industry, cruel particularly towards women. It was great, she and I have a lovely understanding. We've known each other for a long time. We toured together, way back in the 90s, when both bands were emerging and I have a lot of love for her. A lot of respect.
That’s so great to hear. Sometimes you do interviews and you hear absolute horror stories.
You know, I've not had any bad experiences with anyone I've ever toured with. I've never been treated poorly. I love musicians, and I have a lot of respect for anyone in this industry. When I was younger, I was a bit more contemptuous of anyone who wasn't doing it the way I do it. Now I'm like, I just have respect for how you can fucking handle this game, because it's fucking nasty. And if you can hold yourself up in this industry, you have my undying respect, whether you're playing fucking polka, or, you know, heavy metal or anything in between. You have my undying respect.
I was talking to my friend earlier about doing this interview, and we were talking about how much we love your new music as well as the older stuff. It all still feels so Garbage. Do you ever feel compelled to just fall back into being like a legacy act, Alanis was touring Jagged Little Pill, do you ever feel like, oh, we'll just do the old songs, right? We'll just go on tour with the hits?
I always want to be moving forward. You know, I was really proud of our last record, it gutted me that it was still in the throes of COVID we couldn't promote it properly. But I'm really proud of that record. The fact that we garnered such positive reception to it kind of blew our minds, you know - I mean, it came into the top 10 In the UK, that meant so much to me, you know, because that's my country!
To have your seventh record come into the charts AT ALL is such a privilege, and I was proud that we pushed. We're always trying to push ourselves and not to repeat what we've done, we're always trying to do something different. This was quite a political record for us. It got a lovely reception and I was well chuffed.
It’s funny you mentioned being British… I know you're living in LA at the minute, so my last question is, where do you think has the best food?
See, that's a really difficult question, because LA has everything you would ever need to consume. It has everything and at a really high level, right? So LA is an extraordinary city to eat in. And you can eat for cheap.
I also have a home in Scotland in Edinburgh and in recent years that is starting to just smash it. With amazing Michelin starred restaurants and fresh produce from the Highlands and incredible ingredients and sustainable fish, it's really beautifully done in Edinburgh. Some incredible young chefs really pushing to sort of forge a new Scottish cuisine based on sustainable farming and it's just gorgeous. So I would say they're both equally fantastic. It just depends what mood you're in and what you're looking for.
I was in LA recently and towards the end I was going, ‘I really need a Greggs.’ Sat there going ‘I just really need a sausage roll.’
I love a sausage roll from Greggs, I have to confess it's a real soft spot for me.
Well, it has to be if you're Scottish!
Yeah. I've got a real in with Greggs the Bakers babes!
Words: Gina Tonic
